The Second Coming Out of Gay Men – Part III
This is Part III of a three part series which will explore the relationships of younger gay men and older gay men.
Why do Some Younger Men Like Older Gay Men?
Then what is the explanation for the attraction of younger gay men to older gay men?
George Engel MD 1913-1999
• Bio – The genetic basis
• Psycho – Experiences through the developmental process (and I might add, this continues throughout the entire life cycle.)
• Social – Contemporary issues in society, e.g. marriage equality
There is increasing consensus in the scientific community that homosexuality has some basis in genetics, although this idea is adamantly opposed by those who seek to change people from homosexual to heterosexual; if it is innate, it cannot be changed. But I cannot remember speaking to anyone who is gay that believes they weren’t born that way.
However, how being gay manifests itself may be influenced by developmental circumstances. Many men who are attracted to each other in younger/older relationships look to their relationships with their father as an explanation, and the ex-gay therapies base their treatment largely on an out-dated psychoanalytic model. However, these relationships occur where there has been a good relationship with the father, and don’t occur sometimes when there is a distant or absent father. Their model is much too reductonistic.
I wonder sometimes if fathers don’t become distant from their gay sons because they don’t understand each other, and perhaps the distance in the relationship is a consequence of their differences rather than the cause. For example, to go with the stereotypes, if the father’s interests are in football, and the son’s are in dance, they may struggle to find commonality. Men’s relationships with each other are often based on what we do together rather than what we say to each other.
Harvey Milk
Many gay men that I know have admitted that as young adolescents, they have had sexual relationships with older boys or men, and some will even admit that they were the seducer, and many men who are attracted to older men have said that they recall their first sexual attractions at a very early age.
It sometimes frightens me to think that when I was quite young, I was quite sexually drawn to an older adolescent boy, and I definitely pursued him. Today he could have been prosecuted as a sexual predator, put on a registry for sex offenders and have a legacy that followed him the rest of his life.
Although many believe their adolescent experiments were reciprocal and practiced to the joy and benefit of both people, I have also talked with many who felt damaged because their relationship was not reciprocal or voluntary. It is impossible to make generalizations about this difficult situation.
The leaders in the academic sounding National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) refer to homosexuality as a “neurotic adaptation” related to “reactive detachment” from “smothering mothers and abdicating fathers.” Their unproven theoretic framework has mischaracterized same relationships stating that homosexual relationships are brief, volatile, and do not possess “the mature elements of quiet consistency, trust, mutual dependency and sexual fidelity characteristic of highly functioning heterosexual marriages.”
One doesn’t have to look far to see that many heterosexual relationships don’t contain those elements either, and certainly no more than most “highly functioning” homosexual marriages/relationships, of which there are many.
As society tries to do penance for its collective guilt for ignoring the issue of sexual abuse of children for far too long, in some cases the penalties for sex between an adolescent boy and a somewhat older one may be overly harsh. I know of one situation where an adolescent boy whose homosexuality was unrecognized, was sentenced to a treatment center for sexual predators for having sexual contact with a younger boy. He had no other legal or behavioral problems. He subsequently died by suicide.
To consider someone a sexual predator and offender when they are just an adolescent themselves, suggests that they are far more capable of organizing and carrying out the sexual activity that I believe most are capable of. Although I grew up in a different era, when I was fourteen, I knew that I was sexual, but little more than that.
Even though our society forbids it, sexual exploration among adolescent boys is common and frequently over-looked as if it doesn’t exist, and there is tremendous resistance to sexual education that would better equip a young boy to deal with adult-defined sexuality. Those who oppose gay marriage have used the politics of fear to cause parents to believe that this kind of sexual education interferes with their highest obligation: to protect their children. This education could teach young boys that they have a choice to refuse advances from another male and that a failure to express their choice is not the same thing as giving consent.
Those who continue to struggle with same sex attractions of an intergenerational nature must first deal with being gay, which requires deconstructing an inherited value system and reconstructing a new one after consideration of whether or not they believe they have a choice, whether or not their attractions are pathological or sinful, and finally, whether or not they choose to continue the struggle to suppress and control them or to act on them.
Then they must deal with their attraction to those of a different age which begins with considering the possibility that gay relationships, including intergenerational gay relationships can contain “the mature elements of quiet consistency, trust, mutual dependency and sexual fidelity characteristic of highly functioning heterosexual marriages.”
Couples composed of older and younger men must stop apologizing for and attempting to explain their relationships. Make the status of your relationships clear to others and demand that others respect it.
So as one man said to me, “Why do we need to understand why older/younger gay men are attracted to each other. We just need to accept its reality and embrace it.”
I look forward to your comments.
Most of the time , its because we feel safe with the older people most young man drink and smoke a lot now…and the older men have better caring heart..i love older men so much..
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I am grateful to hear from someone from Ghana. I would love to hear more about your experience as a gay man in Africa.
This education could teach young boys that they have a choice and that a failure to express their choice is not the same thing as giving consent.
I had a bit of trouble with this statement and had to read it a few times. is the choice you’re referring to the choice to grant consent to a sexual advance?
At first, I thought you were saying a choice to be gay.
I just thought I’d submit some ideas to this as well as my experience as of late. I am 40 years old and in April of last year finally left a destructive relationship with a guy of the same age after 16 years. The last thing I thought at the time was that I would meet someone again so soon….but to my amazement I met an amazing young man that was only 21 at the time. He is now 22.
I honestly dont think that I would have even given it a shot based on age, but as it turned out he is more mature, honest and sincere than most men of my age. Moreover, Ive never experienced the level of communication I have with him, ever!
Now, thats not to say that we do not have arguments or don’t see eye to eye on everything, but with the communication and honesty and maturity, I honestly NEVER think about the age difference between us. Never!
Some people have posted questions as to why this happens and why it works, and I agree to most of their points. One that I do not is the sexual part of it. I am not and was not looking for someone because they are “hot”. I never have. Although my other half now is very attractive, if he were not able to connect with me emotionally…..there would be nothing.
I did wonder in the beginning why someone that age would want an older guy just as many other posts have suggested. I also wondered whether or not it may have been some Daddy issue.
My partner and I have talked about this quite a bit and it really comes down to the fact that he just does not relate to the gay men his own age. He is more attracted to someone that is done with the gay scene and is more established.
As far as the mentoring part of it is concerned, I’m not sure I agree with that one completely. I think that he learns from me, of course, but what nobody has really mentioned is that no matter what relationship you are in, we all learn from each other.
Since I am older, I’ve noticed that older guys sometimes forget to just relax and have fun and not take things so seriously all the time!!!! I learn from my guy everyday just as much as he learns from me.
Going back to the sex part, in that way…yes maybe some mentoring there. Becuase I have been around for a bit longer, there are many things sexually he has not experienced. If anything was difficult in our relationship in regards to the age difference, it would be this area.
Sometimes in the beginning, my patience would run a little thin because I dont look at sex as having roles in a relationship. Since he is younger, he had not experienced that yet. So for example…being on the receiving end during sex was hard for him because he thought of it as being conquered as opposed to looking at it as something he enjoys.
Alas, because of the great communication….this only lasted for a couple months. Now, its honestly the best sexual relationship we both have ever had.
I’d like to and will share more later because I think this is an important thing to discuss, I’m just out of time for the moment. Thanks for hearing me out and I hope this helps anyone who is going through this as well!
Yes, I was referring to the idea that boys need to know that they have a choice about receiving advances from an older male. I do not believe that being gay is a choice. I do believe that we have some ability to choose how we express it.
Thanks for the comment and I am going to go back to the original post and add a clarification. I don’t want that to be misinterpreted.
Loren Olson
Entering my 62 nd year and for the most part of my adult life I have been sexually active as a gay man. I had my first sexual encounter when I was 14 or 15 with a solider.
Over the years I have been attracted to all ages of men some much younger, some much older. Throughout my encounters I have not been concerned what anyone would say about the age difference that maybe.
I see this question of age as an interesting academic exercise as would discussion on interracial relationships. But in reading some of the responses I do see where there is a need that some individuals have for some information.
If anything just to be reassured that intergenerational attraction is just another version of normal. The other point I was surprised to see mentioned here was NARTH. When I was reading up on what I call the anti-gay lunatic fringe I subscribed to their newsletter. I was continually amused by the so called scientific facts.
This did lead me to the question of why do we believe the things we do. I was surprised that you would have given them any reaction to there drivel in doing so you have given them a bit more credibility. The lunatic fringe should not be brought into any legitimate debate.
Loren, you have raised some very good question —one question that I wonder about is the roll of temperament in how we handle our gay/homosexual behaviour. Maybe this would also help in the greater understanding of the intergenerational relationships and how we make choices.
Graham, Thank you for your comment. Comments like these which help direct me to things others are interested in reading about.
I do have a couple of things posted about younger/older relationships and I certainly will be addressing it in my book, “Finally Out: Unlocking the Closet in Mid-LIfe and Beyond.” It is interesting to me the amount of interest in this topic. It is also interesting to me that my relationship is younger/older and that for a long time, we didn’t see it in those terms. It came up once early in the relationship when I said to Doug, “I worry that you’ll just find someone younger and run off when him.” His response was, “I’ve always liked older men.”
At first of course I had trouble believing it, but after 24 years, I no longer have problems believing it.
What I didn’t realize is how many men find this younger/older pairing what they seek. Of course as an older man, it really made me feel young again to realize that beautiful men found me attractive, when I was feeling older and not so attractive myself. Older men typically have difficulty trusting it, at least at first, and younger men often resent that sometimes they are seen as only looking for a sugar daddy.
I absolutely agree that it is nothing more than a matter of taste, a question of Coke v. Pepsi. I have also found that it is quite stable over time. Men who like older men, continue to like older men, even as they get older themselves. Same is true for men who prefer younger.
The chapter in the book I am writing addresses the intersectin of culture/religion and sexual expression. I have brought up NARTH and discussed it in this chapter. NARTH finds an audience because there are many people who want to believe that being gay is a preference not an immutable identity. If it is only a preference it (supposedly) can be changed. If it is a preference, it can be categorized as “sinful behavior” which can be changed through prayer. It has become an industry and a cash cow for the religious conservatives.
Two of the prominent psychiatrist that lead NARTH have since died. Both clung to their belief that homosexuality was a problem of too close mother and distant father.
Beliefs are funny things. Usually what happens is people form their beliefs, search for confirming evidence and abandon all evidence which doesn’t support their beliefs.
One last response to your question. I have recently been reading about a “nurturing gene,” that some believe has been discovered. It suggests that there might be an inherited personality characteristic which causes people to have a nurturing character trait. This has led to discussions about how a non-procreating person might serve to strengthen a society at large, brining the role of the nurturing person in line with why there role might be protected through an evolutionary process.
Thanks for all of your questions. Each deserves a separate essay and I hope to address them as best I can in the book.
Loren Olson
Hi Loren, thank you for your response.
In my quest to understand the core of my beliefs I came across a very interesting philosopher Michael Polanyi and his book, Personal Knowledge, very thought provoking and far reaching. His book Meaning a very good entry into his thinking —ideas.
I find it is very interesting how we tend to need “authority” whether church or science to give legitimacy to many of our human traits. It would be very interesting to know if this nurturing gene is there at birth or is it some kind of mutant gene that is transformed under environmental conditions as we grow. I will have to put this Nurturing Gene book on my to read list. thanks.
You mentioned that you find it interesting that the topic of Young/Older (YO) has created a lot of interest. Do you think that for many gay men whether in or out of a YO relationships find the concept of YO as an exotic experience. There seems to be many websites that thrive on having stories of YO encounters. And this seems to be played out in the arts over generations. Batman and Robin come to mind but I believe that the Greeks played with the concept way before. As a child I found the stories from the bible very exotic.
Graham
Here is a paragraph I just wrote for my book, Finally Out: Unlocking the Closet in Mid-Life and Beyond:
A growing consensus of scientists believes that a biological predisposition to homosexuality is a “necessary but not sufficient” explanation for the expression of homosexuality. Arguments that homosexuality cannot be genetic because it is “non-procreative,” and therefore would eventually extinguish itself, have been countered by the study of other species in the animal kingdom in which there exist non-procreative individuals in a population who contribute significantly to the over-all success of the biological community. Their contribution potentially makes their community stronger than those where there is total competition for survival among the fittest members of the societies. This would align homosexuality with the theories of evolution by suggesting that although non-procreative, homosexuals strengthen societies through a nurturing and care-taking role.
Even though we’ve gotten as far as identifying the entire human genome, specific genes which determine human traits and those related to homosexuality are a long way from being identified. For some of these things, I think the idea that the genes are “necessary but not sufficient” may vey well be the explanation. In other words, you have to have the gay gene to be gay, but that in itself may not be sufficient.
Greek relationships often took on a kind of mentoring quality and many times the relationship ended as the younger matured. You may find this quote from Plato interesting: Homosexuality is regarded as shameful by barbarians and by those who live under despotic governments, just as philosophy is regarded as shameful by them, because it is apparently not in the interest of such rulers to have great ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful friendships or passionate love – all of which homosexuality is particularly apt to produce.
And this quote from Plutarch during the Roman era: The intelligent lover of beauty will be attracted to beauty in whichever gender he finds it. The more men I have talked with who are engage in younger/older relationships believe that they are engaged in them because that is where they have found beauty. It may not be anymore complicated than that.
For the first 1000 years follow the birth of Christ, it really didn’t seem to matter very much. People were just drawn to beauty where they found it and if it was in someone of the same sex, so be it. Something changed, though, in the middle ages when the translation of the Greek word malakos was changed from “masturbation” to “homosexuality.” I guess it was too much to have a prohibition against masturbation, when a prohibition against homosexuality would impact far fewer men.
Thanks again
Loren Olson
Loren thanks for response and the paragraph. I am a bit perplexed with the statement “necessary but not sufficient” explanation for the expression of homosexuality. I get the biological predisposition to homosexuality but its —not sufficient explanation for the expression of homosexuality. I am not getting.
Could you please define what is meant by “sufficient” and how “expression of homosexuality” is being used. My interpretation so far is this having the “gay”gene is not enough for a person to act out their sexual preference. But what about what is going on in the brain? How doe this compare with the heterosexual gene theory? If you wish you can email me direct. Thank you
Graham
Thanks for your thoughtful and honest response to this issue. Indeed, communication is paramount.
Obviously, he has invested over 20 years in this relationship, so you must mean a great deal to him. Trust, once broken, can be difficult to re-establish, and it can be done in yours, if you both are willilng to communicate about your wants, needs, wishes and fears.
It has been my experience that infidelity does not begin with sex. It begins when the loyalty and commitment for a partner shifts to someone else. I do not sense that has happened in your relationship.
Do you love him enough to stop the casual, anonymous sex? Can you stop it? My guess is that it is driven by a need for approval from others. Casual sex is never an answer to difficulty with self esteem. When someone responds in a sexual way, it gives us a boost, making us feel desired and attractive.
Unfortunately, it lasts only momentarily, and then the pursuit begins again.
Feeling good about yourself comes from within, not from notches for each sexual partner. Men often tend to think in terms of numbers, rather than emotional intimacy. Trust, once broken, can be re-established, but it takes time and work. It comes not from promising faithfulness, but demonstrating it through changes in behavior.
Good luck in working this out. Thanks again for sharing your story. Trust, once broken, can be re-established, but it takes time and work. It comes not from promising faithfulness, but demonstrating it through changes in behavior.
Dear Dr. Loren,
I have got so many things on my mind now after reading your great articles.
I wish there is not categorysation of people, like “homosexuals”, “heterosexuals” etc…, but even I will have to use them now. just wish we all call ourselves “people”. I know this is idealistic, but maybe “people” will come united and don’t care for anybody’s belief’s and sexuality when there will happen something like alien visitors. It might sound awkward, but it might happen. I really hope so.
There is a really “the backwards step” of the society with the religion business. If there was no religion in the world, the world will be like an ideal place to live. Unfortunately there is lots of people without any information and education, and it’s easy to manipulate with them. The religion’s know how to do that the best with people.
Whenever the civilisation want’s to progress there is always religion in the way to make the backwards step.
I have come to think that all human beings are “bisexuals”, and their sexuality just develops with the enviroment which surrounds them. Their genes, parents, community, religion and many other factors. It makes sense to think there is the most “heterosexual” individuals to procreate the human species, then as second number of “bisexuals” individuals to procreate and stagnate and a third number of “homosexuals” to stagnate.
There are always stereotypes for everything, and they are always bad examples. “Heterosexuals” identifies themselves like a perfect example of what a person should be and behave in a sexual way. This is what the majority of the human population thinks as they are “hetero” as mentioned above. Because of this majority the other two “groups” should be eliminated or extinct because in their wiev they are not able to procreate? How about “hetero” people who are not able to procreate? Should they be eliminated?
There is lots to say, I just desire to open people’s eyes and minds.
There is no need to hate somebody because he is different the way he sees beauty or sexuality. The world is beautiful because we are all different. We sould embrace our differences and learn from each other.
Imagine a world that we are all the same?
On the older younger relationships. Because of the stereotypes which mostly “hetero” have created. They have created the stereotype of a young woman or man who is attracted to an older man, seen as a person who is looking for money. This stereotype have been created probably from a story where a younger person was looking for money, or just of an jealous wife whose husband was in love with young woman…then the whole village started talking about and the stereotype begin his journey.
Of course there was always young people attracted to older people and vice versa, but that was always seen as absurd or ignored by “jealous wifes or husbands”.
There will always be stereotypes about everything and mostly they will be negative oriented.
It is impossible to make everyone around you happy, and you certantly can’t live your life for others.
Always follow to your heart and you will make a good choice.
I hope I have opened somebody’s mind.
Best wishes to everyone, Mark from Sapin
I think your comment about all of us being bisexual is interesting. Alfred Kinseys scale of homosexuality, developed in the 1950′s makes a great deal of sense to me. His work created quite a back lash, largely I believe because he discovered that there were many more men having sex with men than was previoiusly thought.
I have been out now for about 30 years, and I can’t imagine myself in a relationship with a woman again, even though I was once married. I find no sexual attraction at all any more.
On the other hand, if I were on a desert island, and the only other person was a female…..