Archive for September, 2011
Age and Income Disparities in Same Sex Relationships
I received this comment in response to an earlier post. I thought it was important enough to share as a separate post:
I am currently 18 and I am dating someone 33. I was totally out and strong-willed about my sexuality since sixteen.
I agree with many views in this blog/review. Ever since I remember I’ve always been attracted to older men or bears. To me the age is only a number. Love has nothing to do with an age.
When I told my mom I liked bears or older men, it was definitely like coming out twice. My mom couldn’t wrap her head around the idea until I told her love isn’t a age or number. And she went on talking about how you both wouldn’t be financially intertwined.
Last time I checked money or age didn’t have to do with love. I am not looking for a sugar daddy. She now understands after three months of dating my older boyfriend.
Loren’s Comment:
Good for you in being so strong and confident about your sexual orientation. I often hear from gay men who come out twice, once as gay, once as someone who prefers intergenerational relationships.
Sugar daddies — and young “trophy” men seeking them — certainly do exist. However, many younger men — like you — resent the implication that they can’t or don’t want to take care of themselves. Older men can also be guilty of needing to be a sugar daddy, i.e. for their own self-esteem, they have a need to take care of someone whom they perceive as weaker or less capable. (Obviously, it is true in some cases that the younger may make far more money than the older.)
Intergenerational relationships can be quite stable but it is my belief that stability is contingent upon the fact that the relationship not be based upon the older “taking care of” the younger (or the younger taking care of the older in some cases). In fact, I would go so far as to say that taking care of someone to a greater extent than they need to be taken care of, de-humanizes them. And an older man who feels that his relationship is contingent upon his deep pockets will never feel secure that he is being loved for the right reasons.
One of the issues that frequently comes up in these relationships, however, is an income disparity. The older man typically may be more financially secure and have more disposable income than the younger man. In other words, the older man may be fully capable of “taking care of” the younger.
It can cause conflict if the older man is used to a lifestyle that is inaccessible to the younger man. For example, the older man might be able to afford a home or vacations that would have been beyond the reach of the younger. The dilemma: The older may not wish to sacrifice those things; the younger may not be able to afford them.
My partner and I have 15 years difference in our ages, and we have been together 25 years now. I have always been able to provide a better income than he. However, we recognized how important it was for him to be able to feel that he was contributing his fair share. Early in our relationship, we made an agreement that we would share our expenses based on our individual contribution to total household income.
Basically, if I earned 75% and he earned 25%, he would pay for dinner or movies every fourth night out. After we had been together a while, this formula was much more relaxed and we now think of all of our income and expenses as “our” income and expenses. But early on, it did give us some guidelines for how we could each feel good about what we were contributing to support our relationship without either of us feeling we were contributing too much or too little.
My husband’s having sex with men
I received this from a distressed woman who has discovered her husband is having sex with men. I have edited it to protect her identity.
I found my husband is cheating on me with men, not one, but many. We’ve been married now for more than 18 years with two lovely kids. We live in a society that does not accept gays people; I can t accept him at all.
I was so surprised that he was cheating on me and still would come and sleep next to me. Although, over the past few years I felt some changes especially when we used to make love. But I would say to myself, “He must be tired, nothing more than this.
I am keeping this to myself. For the sake of the kids and because of my and his dignity in front of our families, I will not seek divorce or leave him. and because of my and his dignity in front of our family. But I am living in pain.
My question is I need to talk to someone. Or shall I keep it for myself and live in agony?
Loren’s comment:
I am sorry to hear of your pain. Although I was in the same position as your husband once, I know the pain that I put my wife through and I can empathize with what you are going through.
I would like to refer you to a website called Striaght Spouse Connection. Carol Grever has lived the life you describe and has written about it. Carol’s book is called When Your Spouse Comes Out. Another book you may find helpful is called The Other Side of the Closet. It is written by a woman who founded “Straight Spouse Network,” an on-line support network. It has a reading list and is a thoughtful site that can give you some answers.
Both women have also reviewed my book, Finally Out: Letting Go of Living Straight, and this is what Carol wrote: “Dr. Olson’s informative book could become a key turning point to complete your healing as a straight spouse. I highly recommend it.”
Unfortunately, what is written for women and by women is often very angry, and not very helpful . Anger is appropriate, but it is important to try at some point to move beyond the anger and hurt that you are feeling and to try to understand what is happening with your husband. I don’t know where you are but I assume not in the USA? My book is available on Amazon UK.
There are several comments I would make:
Your husbands attraction to men will not go away. You can expect that even if he promises never to behave in those ways again, it will be a promise he probably cannot keep. It will be useless to try to extract from him a commitment to remain only faithful to you.
It is not your fault. Most believe that these attractions are probably determined by our genetics, not by life experiences.
Most husbands in this situation are very good fathers and are committed to remaining involved with their children.
Have you confronted him with what you know? You must be certain that if you continue to have a sexual relationship that you protect yourself from any diseases he might acquire. Some men in this situation do not have protected sex and thus expose themselves (and you) to sexually transmitted diseases.
Your husband may love you very much even though he has other sexual attractions. Some men remain very conflicted because their spouses are their best friends, but the attraction to other men is extremely powerful.
I would not discuss this with his his family. If you tell any of your friends or family, everyone will eventually discover it. I don’t think you should never tell anyone; you need support. However, people who know both of you will likely share it with others. Even if his brother disapproves of his behavior, he is unlikely to be able to convince him to stop.
You must take care of yourself in this situation. A good support group such as the one I mentioned is important.
If you wish to remain married and he continues this behavior, you need to modify some of the rules of the relationship. For example, do you want him to tell you each time he has been unfaithful? Can you tell him that you will only have sex with him if he uses a condom? Would it be acceptable for you if his partners are only “casual hook ups” or would you accept him having a regular “buddy” who was the only one he had sex with? I cannot set the rules for you, but you must have this discussion with him.
I hope that you can continue to see him as a good man who is caught in a bad situation. Try to learn to accept him as he is, although he is not the man you thought he was. All the things you loved about him are still there. Forgiveness can come when you learn to empathize with the conflict that he experiences about this. He did not choose this. Even though it hurts you, I do not believe it was ever his intent to hurt you.
You wrote, “But I am living in pain. My question is I need to talk to someone. You need someone to talk with and I believe the resources on “Straight Spouse Connection” and “Straight Spouse Network” can be helpful to you.
Although you are in agony now, healing can occur. Please listen to this interview with my former wife and me. It was broadcast May 18th, 2011.
Newly Gay, Retired and Lonely in North Dakota
This post was written by Arden Flater, 69, who just came out to his wife and children on Memorial Day weekend (May 28, 2011). After having been married just short of forty years, he is now divorced. He has four grown children, ages 30-40, and six grandchildren. He has lived in western North Dakota for 43 years and now resides in Bismarck, North Dakota.
Loren,
On page 56 of your book, Finally Out: Letting Go of Living Straight, a Psychiatrist’s Own Story, you wrote, “Monitoring the secret [of sexual orientation] against societal norms requires considerable effort, constant vigilance, and behavioral self-editing. Although there is a wish to disclose the secret, the need to make a favorable impression on others often overpowers the need to disclose.”
“Background noise” is the term I’ve used when I’ve come out to others. It comes from what scientists call “background radiation,” which is everywhere-present in the universe, the left over, the residuum, from the moment of the big bang. Background noise is ubiquitous, always there; it never goes away. It is a constant reminder of the beginning.
For me, the ubiquitous background noise was questions like, “Does that person know that I’m gay? Does it show? Is there some way the person can tell? What would be the nature of our conversation or the relationship between us if she or he knew?” It was always the filter through which every relationship had to pass. It was true of those most intimate to me — my wife and children — as well as the most casual relationships.
I would pass people as I walked through the mall or people sitting in a concert hall with me. It didn’t matter what person or group, it was just always there: Having come out and no longer caring whether or not people know, that “noise” is largely silenced. That is a terrible burden lifted.
This last weekend I was at an event, and I talked with a man I have known who is a recovering alcoholic. When I talked about my experience with this “noise,” he could identify. Both of us, we discovered — for different reasons and circumstances — experienced the same thing: the need to lie, to pretend.
We agreed that it had taken incredible energy to maintain that falsehood, the façade that suggested we were something we were not. He said that he began to despise the need to drink: He hated doing it. He, too, experienced release and freedom when he “came out” about his alcoholism.
Late in life I heard stories recounted about my paternal great-grandfather. He was a mean-spirited, cold man. I learned that my grandfather and his siblings were “afraid” of him. Their experience of him was one of distance. My own experience with my paternal grandfather (with all of my grandparents, for that matter) was one of distance. In my very young years, my sense of my own father and my mother, too, was one of neglect, one of distance.
As I became aware of that, I reflected on my own parenting and wondered if sometimes that was also true of me. Both my wife and I have worked hard at being more involved and “present” to our children. I have wondered — and now I have learned from them — that sometimes I was distant and not always present. I have thought about both my heritage, but now I also think this “background noise” has been a barrier.
It is a complex thing, this trying to be “straight” when in fact I am gay. It feels so very good to be out and to be freed from that filter. And yet there remains much to think about, process and talk through.
I believe that we don’t have to be out every where, particularly as older men.
How does an older man begin to date again? Sometimes I want to make up for lost time. How does this sense of urgency lead to making bad decisions? There is also a tendency, however ill advised, to want to share the long held secret with the world.
I’ve also just now been reading in your book some comments about suicide and middle aged men coming out and feeling alone. I’m there.
There is no community in a rural place like this. I have no idea how to know here who is gay and who isn’t. On Manhunt.com, there are about 400 men living in Bismarck. I’m suspecting numbers of them are married, but I hear from very few of them.
I’m at a loss to know how to find other gay men. I’m interested in more than having sex, though I don’t mind that. I want to be with other gay men on some basis other-than-sex, to talk with them and do fun things together. I’m very new to being an out gay man. I don’t know where to go.
You have indicated your own struggle in the church; my experience has been different. I’ve just this week talked with the pastor in one of the local congregations about working at doing something in a congregation that would provide a place for GLBT people to come together in a church. I’m not sure what that might be yet. I want to be deliberate about trying something like this. I’m so new to all of this, and I know that I have lots to learn, but I want to do something.
Loren’s comment:
I prefer that others do the commenting but I would like to add two points:
- As I post this, I am attending a Prime Timers event in Oklahoma City. Prime Timers World Wide. It is a social organization that provides older gay and bisexual men the opportunity to enrich their lives.” Here in OKC are gathered about 250 men, ranging in age from about 40 to 91. Many attend with their partners and many come year after year to re-establish friendships and make new ones. PTWW has local chapters but invites individual memberships as well. Celebration of Friends is another organization that meets annually in Florida.
- It is also important to know that research shows that to be happy, gay men don’t need to only surround themselves with other gay men. What they do need are friends (gay and straight) who are accepting of them. In a social setting where we find this kind of acceptance, all of the “back ground noise” disappears , behavioral self-editing is unnecessary, and the sense of peace is evident.

